Testing urTurn marketplace- found a fantastic combination of Payment Accepted + Transaction aborted
Review the urTurn.com service for Facebook and their magic "marketplace"
part I, preface
I loved the idea of urTurn since the first day I've discovered it. Here is the prove :) and here are all other articles I wrote about urTurn so far.
During my usage of urTurn as Facebook service I found many problems with this application/ service. But I told you I like the idea so much so I decided to go ahead even if it was clear to me after only two weeks of playing with it, that the application is full of bugs and service at all ISN'T READY for public, even beta usage.
part II, my prizes
At my own risk I go ahead, earn many points with urTurn@Facebook... many enough to order my first prize just after 2 weeks of using it, an iPod Nano. It's time to order my prize? Not so easy! It was required to order the prize for an address of a friend in USA since urTurn DON'T SEND their prizes ourside USA :) [and never/ nowhere declare it!] OK, it's all done. now waiting for my prize to arrive, waiting for TREE WEEKS already, probably it will never arrive? :P
note: I will write another dedicated story about how I was ordering my prize, first one and then another one. Now here I'll be taking about-
urTurn Marketplace is dangerous place where you may LOSE YOUR MONEY!
I've got my next "surprise" from urTurn when I tried their service called MarketPlace, which is the place where, in according to urTurn.com,
you can buy and sell the points you've earned on your favorite social network. Post an offer to sell points, and earn cash immediately! Post an offer to buy points, and buy points toward a sweet prize like an iPhone!
So it seemed to me that I could acquire some extra points for another prize there :)
I know the true way to earn points is Networking! but the reason for why did I do it is easy: I am leaving for my vacation soon so just wanted to give them more time for delivery of my another prize, to then get them both (sent from USA to Italy). OK, this is also what I was going to talk about in another article ;)
part III, urTurn Marketplace
back to this story- urTurn MarketPlace: so it seems to be a funny way to buy/ sell your urTurn points. On the level of idea I like also this part of the urTurn project, but the implementation... I don't know how many developers do they have working on the project, it seems that they have only one facebook scripter ;) But how did they implement the UI/ Flows/ Messagging of MarketPlace is all really AWFUL!
But-
urTurn MarketPlace has a serious problem- they aren't able to control transactions & user payments!
The easiest way to discover this problem is to try to use urTurn MarketPlace for buying points. although I WILL NOT ADVISE you making this error.
Let's me show you the easiest way how you can get lost your moneywith urTurn:
You go to urTurn MarketPlace to search for suitable offers. select "Offers to Sell" tab.
You select a suitable single Offer. Press on "Make Offer / View" near it.
You confirm your intention to buy points from that user, so set the checkbox "I confirm", and click on "Pay with PayPal" button below the Order Summary.
You enter your PayPal password and confirm the payment. this is all done in a different window/ tab, classical for PayPal so it's OK!
You note a strange detail in the deal you just confirmed: PayPal shows you the transaction status="Unclaimed". not so good? but you trust urTurn + there is nothing to do, you've just send your money to somebody far from you and the only link you have between you and them is urTurn :)
urTurn will send a message "transaction pending", with a summary of the transaction just made.
You WAIT. time goes.
urTurn sends you a strange message "Transaction aborted: Expired", with the text like this-
Your offer to buy XXXX points @ $0.01/pts from user zzzzzzz on 8/14/08 11:57:36 was Expired
You go to PayPal to check what's going on and find that you can't cancel your payment. you can't do anything. and you also won't be given your points, since urTurn is sure that Transaction is Aborted.
[optional] Some time later you receive from PayPal a message that says "User zzzzz has accepted your payment". WoW! But the fact if you've received it or not doesn't change a lot, urTurn has already canceled your transaction. however it's the worst case when you get a message like this after your "expired" transaction-
This email confirms that zzzzzzhas accepted the $XX.xx USD you sent.
[optional, useless] You become angry and reply to the system message from urTurn (the one with "transaction aborted"), saying that you've payed for these points and another user has also accepted your payment, so what the hell does the "transaction canceled" means? but nobody will reply you.
You understand you've been f&cked up by web 2.0.
[just for fun update] Well, we live in a Social Web world, so everything is possible, even to contact that another person who you paid money to!
A true sad story 2.0, right? I have few pairs of the "transaction aborted" + "payment accepted" and have notified urTurn to not be happy about it... but there is no answer. as well as nobody can/ wish to update me about the state of my prizes ordered/ shipped (?).
this is a just for fun update- another user wrote me today via Facebook:
FYI, here are the two OFFICIAL places where you may find another "excited users" of urTurn:
urTurn Rewards APPLICATION on Facebook. Check the Users' reviews there;
For bad or for good, it has nothing to do with Web2.0, this is a classical case of the American snobbery ( you know you live in the rest of the world, right?) multiplied by Bangalore developers' ignorance.
Posted by Michael on Tuesday, August 19th, 2008 at 11:09
You must never ever pay with Paypal through any website's portal. This is a the biggest fraud area with Paypal transactions. If it's a legitimate company you can ask them to send you an invoice directly from their Paypal account. ONLY complete Paypal transactions through the Paypal website. NEVER EVER send a payment by entering your Paypal account email address and password. You will inevitably fall prey to fraudulent transactions "sent through" another website.
Posted by Guest ( Anonymous )/207.172.238.136 on Tuesday, August 19th, 2008 at 18:32
How do I join the MilanIn blog area? Was posted as Guest/Anonymous. The above message is from me: Francesca Ambrosini :-)
Posted by Guest ( Anonymous )/207.172.238.136 on Tuesday, August 19th, 2008 at 18:33
Ciao Francesca, it doesn't exist the "MilanIn blog area" ;) We are a Business Club + this is our site (so for Club Members), here is some info about what MilanIN is:
as soon as you become Member you'll get access also to MilanIN "Blog Space" ;)
Posted by Andrey Golub on Tuesday, August 19th, 2008 at 19:44
btw, I would never pay a dime to a company or person that does not say who they are neither on website or in the domain record. I would gladly click on "donate" button if they'd have one
Posted by Michael on Tuesday, August 19th, 2008 at 19:55
urTurn is down today, they say it's "for upgrade maintenance"! But it was up and running with all the info available on-line just before today, plus it's not a yesterday's (stealth) start-up, techcrunch.com was reviewing them still in May!
They've spent also their Facebook application. There is no even a static image :)
I thought- Maybe they've closed their business after my "strong" review of their service on Facebook? :lol:
and it's not only "review" I assigned to urTurn.com. Google knows the truth :)
Posted by Andrey Golub on Tuesday, August 19th, 2008 at 20:22
About us
whois record:
Registrant:
Domains by Proxy, Inc.
DomainsByProxy.com
15111 N. Hayden Rd., Ste 160, PMB 353
Scottsdale, Arizona 85260
United States
This is a stealth company. There are thousands of such companies on the web driven by hundreds of "entrepreneurs".
And from when has the techchurch become a reference for companies trustworthiness ?
Francesca has obviously overreacted but paying to someone who hides himself from others or/and operated in a territory not governed by laws is always a danger. Even with paypal.
The good thing is that you have done another case study here ;)
Web 2.0 is cool and we are all a community, but as in any community not everyone is a nice guy.
Posted by Michael on Tuesday, August 19th, 2008 at 20:38
You're right Michael it's a "stealth" start-up from the business point of view, it's even mentioned in the personal BIO of its founder (although it was on-line in PUBLIC beta).
stealth Internet Startup focusing on rewards user activities on all social networks
And of course I always remember the difference between us in the way of looking at this world,- for you Internet is an IP World so the "whois record" is something really helping you ;) In my case the world/ reference I trust is Social Media, so I visit crunchbase.com often than any whois service ;) and the crunchbase record for urTurn.com is quite complete-
urTurn offers rewards to users based on their interactions and connections with friends on social networks. The more content you generate, the more connections you make, the more urPoints you earn. urPoints have cash value and can be redeemed for prizes like iPhones or sold for cash on the urTurn marketplace.
+ As I mentioned in my Blog, I've known some leading people behind the company. you know for sure what do I mean by "I've known" ;)
they exist and they're are real (good) people... probably dreaming to become a killer start-up on the web...
I was even exchanging messages with the SEO on Facebook... but it doesn't really help as far as I can see ;)
it's just that their Team is missing for sure an experienced Social Media Marketing specialist, someone who'd tell them they're doing so many mistakes in communication so that the quality of technical implementation of their system at the end won't count. On the Web or even worst on Web 2.0 a company may earn or lose its reputation in a few days, and urTurn is already on the way :(
btw their Community Manager is also a real person who is just never responding to user mails/ messages/ reviews/ blogs/ etc :)
The point is, or better, my point is not about if you CAN or you CAN'T find information on what company or people are behind a company. Trust me, you always can and sources for the websites that sell this information to you are mostly public.
My point is about what you MUST BE ABLE to find, and one of these is the whois record which is a law enforced MUST for every registrant to provide the correct information.
Now then, the thing is that US is governed by "internet is tubes" senators who pass the laws and leave there holes like you know where. Through that hole you have companies that sell services of "hiding" the real registrant name. Officially it is advertised as "anti-spam technique. But we, the "IP World elves" are not buying it. Administering a dozen of porno and gambling sites, seeing people start fraud web businesses and such... I, being an "IP elf" know what a reputation and disclosure mean for them. A company who hides their whois record is suspicious. Period. Sorry for you you did not check it before buying. It is like you enter a local shop and they have no papers on the walls about who runs it and if they have local health department license. Even better, they don't even have a business card saying what their legal address is. All you can do, is go to another shop and he will tell you who they are because he knows the phone number of the local chamber of commerce.
All this is IMHO ridiculous and disgusting. Yes exactly, that's it, a company hiding their whois record is disgusting.
P.S. I am not trying to attack you, that will be another conversation ;) I am trying to clarify my point of view on the importance of on-line reputation and on such an integral part of it as the whois record of your company's domain name.
Posted by Whois reader on Tuesday, August 19th, 2008 at 21:48
Michael,
I'm not sure I understand what you mean by me overreacting when it comes to regard Paypal safety and secure website payments. I am not overreacting. I am pro-active! When it comes to paying on a site that asks you to enter your Paypal address and password you can never take a chance. It's just stupid to do so. It's like me entering my bank account information on a site that wants to be payed by wire instead of through my bank directly. Nothing is ever 100% secure when paying online. That's just part of life. What you can do is have a back-up safe guard to recover any losses should they occur. I have no clue where you are from Michael but you must not ever have been a victim of identity theft through account info being hacked through second, third party data.
Ciao,
Francesca A.
Posted by Francesca Ambrosini ( Anonymous )/207.172.238.136 on Tuesday, August 19th, 2008 at 21:50
Dear "Who is reader":
Bravo! I agree..."hidden registrant" addresses are a #1 red flag. Give me a break...like I'm supposed to wire money and trust a company that hides information that could be used against them if they commit fraud. The loop hole benefits are enormous on the web. It's up to the consumer to be pro-active. While we are always taking a chance sending online payments or dealing with online, we don't have to be blind about the blatant red flags out there. Michael can say I'm over reacting but I say it's called common sense and damage control. Measure twice, cut once :-)
Posted by Francesca Ambrosini ( Anonymous )/207.172.238.136 on Tuesday, August 19th, 2008 at 22:01
I see the point Francesca and about where I am form it is clearly stated above:
I am an IP world elf ( IP is Internet Protocol and not Intellectual Property).
When I said "overreacting" that was maybe a wrong word to use but excuse my poor English, I was trying to say that it is not the moral of this story. What you are describing is more a phishing technique whenever what has happen to Andrey is a "stealth" web business. People who know that information about their business cannot be obtained in an easy and known way so they can do their "transactions" stuff for a ten bucks payment which I'd rather will go to sleep than to fight them overseas.
If I've been in a situation of identity theft? No, I wasn't. God save me. But I've been a victim of bad transactions when you pay for something using paypal and you don't get neither the goods or refund:
As a reminder, here is the story:
Thu 6th, I have ordered VPS1 package.
Mon 10th the service was still in pending state, I have opened a ticked asking for an activation time estimation.
Tue 11th I've tried to login and check the ticket state and I've discovered that my e-mail address is not recognised anymore by your self care system.
15 minutes ago, I've spoke with your representative asking for a refund and this email contains all the details required by him.
Please review and refund.
Hi
We need the payment ID.
Thanks
James
I gave them all the numbers I could find about that transaction. Sent mails and faxes. Never got my 10 pounds back.
And that is an absolutely legal business running there for three years with some rent-a-virtual-office address in London. And it was an absolutely clear paypal transaction with the proper redirects.
The point is the reputation, I was kinda in a rush to buy this service and only checked who they are afterwards. I wish I have been checking before. Could save a lot of time and some phone calls.
Posted by Michael on Tuesday, August 19th, 2008 at 22:11
The loop hole benefits are enormous on the web.
My turn to say bravo, the famous long tail.
As about the overreacting.. connecting the name with Bella Vita from spock power group that recently has been awaken..
sorry your emotional pro-activity has kinda confused me ;) so I am taken that "over" back leaving only "reacting".
Posted by Michael on Tuesday, August 19th, 2008 at 22:14
Michael,
I know about phishing. What I am concerned about is never dealing with second, third party routed payment transactions. I'm not sure if I've explained this correctly! Sorry if I misunderstood your reply. Sometimes I find it difficult to communicate in English myself!
Posted by Francesca Ambrosini ( Anonymous )/207.172.238.136 on Tuesday, August 19th, 2008 at 22:24
I don't care how "stealth" a company "appears" to be even with profiles and business articles, etc. If they are not replying to customer service requests in a timely and effective manner they are bad news! Sometimes even Fortune 500 companies have crap customer service policies in effect. It's up to the consumer to fight it out. When you give up and think you have no re-course they win and keep making money off of your misery! If you don't get a solution you need to make one! Get heard by hell or high water...shame them into a response. Never give up ;-) If a company, "stealth" or not doesn't measure up, speak up. If they use the web to use you then you can also use the web to speak up on their tactics. The pen is mightier then the sword...and the hand of justice writes on!
Francesca A.
Posted by Francesca Ambrosini ( Anonymous )/207.172.238.136 on Tuesday, August 19th, 2008 at 22:30
very inspiring :)
I did my best Francesca, posting my story on all the industry related forums but I was too late, there were reports already I've been to lazy to read before buying.
If it does help? well, check this out, just skim the article and tell me if such a company should exist in the very cruel hosting business.
They do, still selling. And that is only one article posted on consumerist, try to ggole vistapages, not a word on anything but fraud.
Posted by Michael on Tuesday, August 19th, 2008 at 22:38
Sorry all if I joined in on this UrTurn thread so late. Michael is right on...I do happen to be rather emotionally charged when writing. How did you know it was me Bella Vita ;-p...
So after re-reading these notes please correct me if I'm wrong, both Andrey and Michael have had negative experiences with UrTurn gift redemptions?
I joined MilanIn yesterday and hope to be accepted as a member and have my own login id.
I'm grateful for Andrey's open discussions and advocacy on keeping blog posts informative and helpful for all concerned. Otherwise I would have never known about this UrTurn issue and many more future posts.
Posted by Francesca Ambrosini ( Anonymous )/207.172.238.136 on Wednesday, August 20th, 2008 at 06:21
No no, I have no experience with urturn apart from Andrey's story he told. Firstly I am trying to stay away from "free beer" on web. Secondly, I don't have a chance to gain an amount of virtual their money that will buy me an ipod.
Posted by Michael on Wednesday, August 20th, 2008 at 06:28
Francesca there is only myself who "had negative experiences with UrTurn gift redemptions" from us two of MilanIN, but Michael knows that the things I am talking about (in my Blog) always make part of my personal experience. the other guy who was playing with urTurn was Carlo, but as far as I know he hasn't arrived at the level high enough to see the rest.
anyway on Facebook there are some groups and lots of discussion board about urTurn, and several people have the same problems with them.
it's just that you know I've been for sure the most heavy from all their heavy testers ;) so I've seen best of the others how it NOT-works ;)
my story in short: I could earn in 3 weeks enough points for my first prize and then in two other weeks 75% for the second prize + I bought some points in order to test the marketplace (I didn't even hoped they'll deliver my prizes).
and I am blogging time to time about urTurn for all this time + make snapshots of all "news" on urTurn etc, using all other 2.0 channels.
but you know, after the our great experience with spock.com in its beginning (plz let's not speak about spock as it's now!)- it was really easy to now evaluate and judge urTurn.com
it's an easy story :) Spock was much... much a difficult case!
Thanks Andrey and Michael for the clarifying this thread. I think what Andrey is doing is super. Blogging about sites honestly. Andrey appears to be one of the few beta testers that genuinely cares about the future of 2.0. He strives and achieves an amazing neutral environment. How he does it is still a mystery ;-). I think Andrey Golub is a rare talent and we must applaud all his time and effort in helping ALL of us here in this complex Web World.
Best always,
Francesca
Posted by Francesca Ambrosini ( Anonymous )/207.172.238.136 on Wednesday, August 20th, 2008 at 15:28
you're too kind, Francesca, thank you! ;)
Posted by Andrey on Wednesday, August 20th, 2008 at 15:34
RSS